cross-posted from: https://lemmy.crimedad.work/post/138601
“That son of a bitch, Bibi Netanyahu, he’s a bad guy,” said Biden privately, according to Woodward. “He’s a bad fucking guy!”
Reads like a bloody Onion article.
What speaks louder?
Actions or words?
Fuck Joe Biden and fuck Amerikkka. ✊🏼
Now say it in public and act accordingly.
Defend Israel, but not Netanyahu’s government.
The logical conclusion in the face of Biden’s other actions such as keeping on sending weapons to Netanyahu and protecting him in the UN, is that this “leak” is a purposeful and carefully crafted bit of PR from Biden’s team.
By their own track record, Biden and his minions are about as trustworthy as Netanyahu.
Yes exactly, everyone should stay home instead of voting so Trump wins.
When did they say that exactly?
The fuck was he expecting?
Maybe stop sending them billions in weapons then, eh?
More lies to make the rubes think he is against the genocide. He has done this many times before and its always utterly meaningless.
In an election year? That’s political suicide in the US to Harris by proxy, given how many people are brainwashed over there.
The majority of Americans are opposed to sending weapons to Israel. Even the majority of Republicans.
Supporting Israel for political gain is a vastly overstated argument. It exists to justify sending weapons to Israel.
It is very similar to the previous claim that Biden should not have been replaced because he was the incumbent.
They didn’t stop to think: what if people don’t want to vote for genocide? Oh well, we won’t give them that option because genocide is an American value. See: native Americans.
He had the chance to legitimize the option. They have the evidence, and they have the laws. He treated both of those like chopped liver and that was that. He’s locked in now.
Drag thinks giving guns to murderers is the political suicide.
In America, it is.
forgot the government was called Biden Tower
It’s so simple, even a random person on the internet with no knowledge of how any of it actually works has figured it all out!
Yeah! Just… break a decades-long agreement. There no nuance to this at all! No complications…
amirite?
There can’t possibly be any penalties or repercussions for that! I mean. A random internet citizen said to do it- so……
Easy peezy!
It is.
It was easy enough for Reagan, Bush Sr, Bush Jr, and Obama.
It is easy enough to do again.
Seriously, do you have no idea about recent history?
“You expect America, with its history of breaking promise and agreement and doing whatever the fuck it wants and giving two middle fingers to anyone that doesnt like it… to break its promises and agreements with Israel to prevent a genocide? THE NERVE! HOW UNCOUTH! WHY I NEVER!”
Yet another people that thinks it’s simple and easy- while offering no solution.
Israel doesn’t get to threaten the world with our weapons. That’s why we have laws about this specific thing.
Soooo… what’s your solution? Solve the problem. Let’s see you explain away and solve something even experts in the field say is incredibly complicated.
Also. While you’re at it, go ahead and show your credentials that give you the authority to tell an entire administration that you know shit that they don’t.
The US military-industrial complex does not need you to defend it.
It might well be more complex than that, but you have every right to demand from your government to put its vast resources to use in order to tackle that complexity. Given the severity of the situation, I’d say you have a responsibility to.
Seeing such a tragedy unfold and going ‘oh, my government probably has a good reason to keep funding the active genocide, I’d hate to give some extra paperwork to our bureaucrats by making a fuss!’ is very defeatist, to put it politely.
Demand as much you’d like. It’s a right to do so. However the problem is, we have assholes that are withholding their vote because their unreasonable demands aren’t being met. And yes, expecting a nation to simply just… end an agreement is unreasonable.
Because again- it’s NUANCED AND COMPLICATED.
And therein is the problem.
I’d love for just ONE of these people demanding we stop sending weapons to Israel to lay out a plan on exactly how to go about it. Because I’d love to see that! I’d LOVE to see it happen, because I HATE that it’s happening to begin with.
I’m sure the pentagon, the White House and even Palestine would love to see that as well.
But no. That won’t happen. Because it’s so much easier to just demand a thing you don’t understand, than it is to accept that what you demand is unreasonable in the context of what actually needs to happen for it to work.
And therein lies my point.
We ALL want that shit to stop. ALL of us. It’s a no brainer to want to end the supply of weapons to those that use them to harm innocent people. But saying “Look at me! I want the US to stop supplying arms to Israel! I’m a good guy! Give me internet points!” Isn’t helping anyone. I could do that shit all day. It doesn’t change anything.
Provide a seamless and workable plan to end the supply or stop assuming it’s that easy. Because it’s easy to say a thing should be done.
It’s MUCH harder to actually do it.
It’s not “nuanced and complicated”… if you’re a lemmy.ml shill trying to get Trump elected
I’d love for just ONE of these people demanding we stop sending weapons to Israel to lay out a plan on exactly how to go about it
I’m pretty sure the answer you’re going to get is “1. Stop sending them 2. Profit”
Its really not that hard, the US just has to lay demands down to Israel and follow through with them. You stop making things worse by doing X by Y date, if you dont we stop providing you one type of weapon you need least. If you dont do it by Z date you lose something more important. Repeat until they realise you’re not bluffing.
The problem isn’t that its beyond the wit of man for the US to figure out how to use its immense leveage over Israel, its that it chooses not to.
So I’m to assume you disagree with leading experts on the subject? Because NPR had them on a few mornings ago and they said exactly as I’m saying- it’s incredibly complicated and nuanced.
But you seem to know everything. Perhaps you should tell them they’re wrong.
I’m done with this. There’s no getting through to anyone here.
I think the issue people arguing with you that you don’t seem to get is that not everyone does want it to stop.
You seem blind to that reality that there is a large portion who arent even looking or talking that people are dying.
Who think what is going on and continuing is fine, or even good or right. And those people are in the positions to even try to limit any of it, and wont.
You’re not arguing honestly if you really claim the reason no one in power speaks against it is because it’s too hard? That seems really unlikely doesn’t it? “It’s difficult and we’re looking at legal options” and “we will continue to arm and defend them” are wholly different.
Soup is an absolute moron with a nuance fetish.
Every matter must be super complex because it hasn’t been solved…failing to recognize not everyone wants the problem solved because they benefit from it not being solved. NUANCE!
Either that or they’re a Zionist intentionally derailing conversion by finding new “parliamentarian says no” situations for why the genocide must continue.
Agreed. Soup is likely here to tire everyone out with his blather. He doesnt post anything in good faith and I doubt he beleives what he says. He is just a classic troll. Sad really. Best to block the user and move on.
The irony of you commenting this to a Lemmy.ml account
You entirely missed the point of everything I’ve said- whether it be on purpose or not, I’m done trying to explain this shit. It’s a pointless exercise in futility to even try and have a nuanced discussion here.
You haven’t really said anything though. You just keep claiming “it’s complicated bro”. How? We’re reasonable people here, for the most part. If you can explain why it’s not simple, people might listen.
I’ve explained it already throughout this entire thread.
Israel is going to impose “penalties” on the US? Are you high?
So we throw away the “rules based international order” and return to the pre-1914 unilateral rules and all the brutal wars that bought? So much better, amirite? Might makes right, and we’ve got the might
for now!The US stance on Israeli leadership is decimating our ability to wield soft power influence. We are global hypocrites blocking ANY action, whilst expecting the world to fall in line to support Ukraine against Russian revanchism - even NATO members dissent from the US position. The global south is turning to China/OPEC+ trading blocs. They already tried to break the petrodollar, which would be a huge blow if successful.
Even taking a realpolitik approach, without soft power all those US military bases used for ‘power projection’ lose their local consent, and become occupation sites inside non-allied nations. The Muwaffaq Salti Air Base in Jordan is a chill spot for launching COIN drone missions - whereas the Conoco base in Syria is constantly under drone and rocket attack.
Supporting Bibi’s wars of aggression is a stupid play on multiple levels.
I never said it was good to support it (though I’m sure that won’t stop people from reporting me for being a genocide apologist). Only that it’s a very complicated and nuanced thing to just assume it should be easy to simply stop because we want it to.
Nothing would make me happier than to see the issue resolved and for people to stop being hurt. But that’s not for me to decide. With a vote or otherwise.
And that’s because it’s a very complicated agreement. Nations don’t just decide to break them. Regardless of your strong opinions on the matter.
Maybe stop sending them billions in weapons then, eh?
I see at least three actions in that statement:
- Stop giving them billions in free weapons
- Stop giving them any weapons
- Stop them
#1 should have happened a long time ago imo, if not used as a leverage to prevent an Israeli ground invasion of
Rafah,the West Bank,Lebanon, striking enrichment at Natanz. “Free bombs for crimes against humanity” is a bad moral play, bad politics, and bad diplomacy outside the US:Israel sphere.#2 Is politically hard normally, impossible in an election cycle. I hate it, but here we are in the house we built. Make FEC the only campaign funds - it’s OUR government, not the highest bidder’s.
#3 The US’s geopolitical track record shows that we’ll tolerate some awful, terrible people if they’ll get ‘on our side’ even if there’s a trend of massive and foreseeable blowback, the diplomatic corps don’t learn lessons.
And my point is:
- It’s more complicated than that
- It’s more complicated than that
- it’s more complicated than that.
What I’m trying to say is that none of us are experts on the subject. And those that are suggest that, guess what?
Yeah. It’s more complicated than that.
And I chose to believe the experts on the matter. But when they’re ready to argue music theory, I’ll eat their lunch. 😀
Since you are a person “with knowledge of how any of it works”, please share with the class what those penalties and repercussions are. Educate us poor ignorant “random Internet citizens”.
I don’t have knowledge of how it works. And that is why you don’t seem me injecting my bullshit take on how to resolve it. I don’t claim to know how easy it is to just…. Break a decades long agreement.
I do however listen to the experts when they say that it’s incredibly complicated and detailed situation that goes back decades and involves two countries that have had a conflict since 1948 officially, and predates even that. And that it’s not so simple to just…. Break a decades long agreement.
See?
That’s how an understanding of NUANCE works. You start by learning that you don’t know everthing, and finish with the understanding that not everthing is as black and white as you’d like it to be- that there will always be others that know more about it than you do, and that you should listen to them.
And no, I’m not one of them. I’m simply advocating that you seek them out and listen to what they say. Because I guarantee you, they’re going to school you on what you thought you knew about how to navigate geopolitical diplomacy.
We can all hope that the powers that be find a way to end this as soon as possible. But we’re not helping anyone by assuming simplicity where there isn’t any.
Your argument is silly. There are laws on the book that empower the State Department to block arms transfers to Israel. The only way this can be undone is if Congress repealed the laws, which is hardly likely.
So, what you’re saying is that it’s….
Complicated?
I think part of why you’re getting downvoted to hell is because your initial comment reads like “I don’t have the answers (none of us do), but I know yours is wrong. I’m not contributing any facts to show why you’re wrong, but because I feel strongly that you are, I’ve decided to be insulting about it.”
I get it, world politics is complicated. Absolutely no action on a world stage is without unexpected consequences. But that in itself is not an argument for arming an ethnostate we know to be killing civilians at an alarming rate. And the unexpected consequences would have to be damned severe to outweigh the known consequences of our current actions: if we keep providing weapons to Israel, those weapons will be used to kill women and children in droves.
No, I’m being downvoted because the majority of lemmy doesn’t understand how nuanced topics work. It’s all or nothing. “With us, or against us.”
It’s a hive mind mentality here.
With this in mind, it’s not a stretch to understand that one doesn’t need to know how things should be done to know how things shouldn’t be done.
Want an example? I don’t know the right way to safely jump out of an airplane is, but I know that doing it without a parachute is fucking stupid.
And this same logic is applied to the idea that it’s easy to just end treaties and agreements and assume there’d be no consequences. Those that have the power to end them- yeah… THEY know.
But I know, it’s SOOOOOO much easier to just fill in the blanks with whatever bullshit suits an argument than it is to actually look into it. I’ve looked into it. And as I r already mentioned- EXPERTS in the field have said it’s incredibly complicated
Lastly, I don’t give a shit about being downvoted. It’s an irrelevant and worthless carryover from Reddit that should never have happened.
It literally is as simple as “stop arming their military with American tax dollars”
What part of this is so difficult to understand?
Oh, I know. It’s because you don’t give a shit. All this performative hand wringing and “nuance” talk just serving to distract from the fact that another dozen kids got shot in the head today with American 7.62.
performative hand wringing
Is literally exactly what you’re doing by whinging on the internet without discussing concrete steps on how to actually end the arms agreement.
A “bad guy!” My word, Mr. President, what next, we’ll stop sending them money? Have some decorum.
Can we stop reporting on Biden or whoever else using salty language unless it’s something along the lines of “I’m cutting off the fucking military aid.”?
That won’t happen, both parties are bought out by AIPAC, just AIPAC will stop splitting the money and give it only to the one who doesn’t give them what they want. If a Democrat president said “I’m ending this here, enough bloodshed” AIPAC would fund the Republicans, despite how much Republicans hate Jews, quietly and publicly.
I’m not trying to defend the literal actual genocide, I’m trying to say the money makes them keep their hands flowing with greenbacks and blood of civilians.
EDIT: The two below, I blocked you before two for being liberals who have defended genocide and argue that somehow Democrats need to support the genocide and its a good thing that AIPAC owns both parties. Mainly soup is a troll who acts smarter than everyone else.
I think there’s a much more lively audience who’s votes could be won with the simple free act of stopping weapons sales to Israel or banning their use on civilian infrastructure.
Blinken does this to Ukraine on a regular basis literally to avoid escalation, to the point of absurdity like not letting Ukraine strike Russian military bases where glide bombs are being launched from…
…but somehow this administration is dumbfounded about how we can curtail Israel from blowing up ambulances and orphanages?
This is exactly the fact they never want to hear, and instantly ignore, then forget the moment you bring it up.
“But we’ll still give him whatever he wants. That AIPAC there frightens me”
AIPAC and Citizens United are actually frightening.
https://abcnews.go.com/538/pro-israel-groups-spent-big-oust-squad-members/story?id=113675889
https://apnews.com/article/cori-bush-aipac-house-race-missouri-568c1a84974b8ba176a8d27a8375de42
They are able to change the outcome of races with seemingly unlimited money. A spend of 8.4 million in a Missouri primary is absurd, and likely is a drop in the bucket of what is spent influencing the presidential race.
I don’t think there is a way to fix this either, since the people that should be writing laws to prevent the ones benefiting the most.
I imagine this is also happening in Republican primaries, so one can’t just vote differently to address the root cause. Both republicans and Democrats seem to be tripping over each other to prove what a friend they are to Israel. It’s really weird and stressful to be a US citizen right now.
I hope someday Americans realize that its not scary muslims that are America’s enemy, its the zionists, and it always has been since partition.
So you’re saying Israel actually controlling the US?
In a roundabout, totally legal way, yes they are. Technically it is a US organization that wants to strengthen US ties with Israel, so it’s totally not foreign influence /s
It’s really weird and stressful to be a US citizen right now.
I can’t even begin to express how stressed I’ve been over this.
Anyone that has the misfortune of recognizing they’ve been encountering my comments of pure exasperation lately will attest to that…
I’m generally a pessimistic person, but I truly believe Trump is going to win this and the heritage foundation is going to be able to implement their plan to solidify control of the government.
Don’t give up hope. Harris is up +4 in Pennsylvania
This is very important info.
I find here on Lemmy folks don’t often consider these types of second order consequences.
It’s very ugly but it has to be considered.
Lemmy? Pick any platform. It’s full of “experts” shouting into the void for years now. It’s sickening how these people have the same rights to vote. (/A obviously)
Your common folk knows Jack shit about their own politics and even less so about global ones. It’s good to hold people accountable but this? This is just madness. There is zero nuance and only goes from one extreme to other. Yes we all want zero civilian deaths, full tolerance, equal rights and for police to be better. But are there any real solutions out here? Ofc not. Just another cave dweller parroting same arguments they read somewhere. Critical thinking is a thing of the past. And it’s sad as I haven’t got an answer either.
Literally…
This comment didn’t happen yesterday, it was months ago. And Biden still hasn’t changed.
And it still hasn’t stopped Bibi from pushing for trump
There is literally no benefit for loyalty to a facist government, the second you’re not 100% with them you’re 100% against them. It’s the same way trump acts
There has been a change in what he says.
But yeah, still nothing on what he does.
There has been a change in what he says.
Has there?
I’m not talking backroom comments like this, I mean public statements
He’s publicly accusing Israel of supporting Trump. He didn’t publicly accuse them of anything before that.
Do you happen to have a link?
I searched and couldn’t find anything, but searching anything with “Biden, trump, Israel” kind of floods the results
four million in donations (that we know of) buys A LOT of loyalty.
said Biden privately
You literally just gave a fucking press conference.
Biden just waking up… He must be one of the only users who only reads reddit’s worldnews and nothing else.
I don’t know how he would ever have expected anything different from Netanyahu. It’s not like this is the first time he failed to show the “restraint” Biden pleaded for (while simultaneously providing him with an unlimited supply of weapons).
Because he is. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck
put up or shut up motherfucker.
No shit, Joe!
