In the several states where it is a crime to be homeless. Such as the 24 states with laws restricting “loitering” in public spaces.
Or the 16 states that do the same, but in all spaces.
Or the 15 states where pitching a tent in public locations is illegal.
Or the 4 states that do that, but in all spaces.
Or the 6 states where sleeping or lying down in public is illegal.
Or the 4 states where it is illegal to sleep in a vehicle.
Nah, slavery is still slavery. Tons of US businesses are currently propped up by prisoner workers who they don’t have to pay practically anything, and who can’t walk off the job, and who can’t really complain too much, AND, conveniently, aren’t employed by that company so they can bypass labor laws like break times, safety regulations, and working hours.
You’re making the following statements, lmk if this is inaccurate:
-Involuntary servitude is not considered slavery, but rather a punishment.
-Involuntary servitude is OK as long as it’s used on prisoners (those who have been convicted of crimes).
Inference made: Constitutional protections and rights do NOT apply to those going against the rule of law.
Questions for you:
-If involuntary servitude isn’t considered slavery, then what would you consider slavery to be?
-Is this a form of punishment that helps to reform and correct those deemed currently unsuitable for society (without going into the meaninglessness of Orwellian naming conventions, they are called the “Department of Corrections”, aren’t they?)
-Do you think the rule of law always corresponds with ethical standards?
-I always like to ask myself the following: Who stands to benefit from allowing slaver- I mean, “involuntary servitude” to continue to be allowed? Who stands to benefit from all this cheap labor?
The thing is: it is not black-or-white but always and heavily depends on context. But let me try to clarify my point of view.
Involuntary servitude is not considered slavery, but rather a punishment.
If someone commits a crime and is sentenced to do community service for example, then it is a punishment, yes. In a modern society they are not forced (i.e. with actual psychologic/financial/physical force) but rather given the option to either do community service (or whatever they were sentenced to by the judge, like for example an arsonist has to help rebuilding what they burned down) or chose not to do it. It this case they either have to pay a certain amount of money or they’re going to jail instead.
Involuntary servitude is OK as long as it’s used on prisoners (those who have been convicted of crimes).
Yes, in two ways. First, it is part of their correction process by giving them a structured day, a responsibility, something to be proud of (like getting a qualification or being able to have some form of apprenticeship helping them to gain a foothold in society, etc., etc.). And second as part of their imprisionment. Also mainly to have a structured day and having them away from their cell so the prison staff can search it for contraband, the cleaning staff to do their work, etc. The prisoners will also get some money from it for being able to buy “luxury goods” in the prison kiosk (i.e. goods that are not provided by the prison, like chocolate, good/better coffee, etc.).
They’re also not “forced” to do this. If they decide not to, then they usually get more strict rules, like less “free” time in the courtyard, not allowed to have regular visitors, no day parole, earlier cell confinement and less time to see other inmates, etc.
what would you consider slavery to be
Forcing someone to do work for you, using physical (threatening with, or using violence), psychological (talk them into doing it, yelling at them, bully them, etc.), or financial (exploiting their poverty) force and/or ignoring safety risks and/or ignoring health issues and risks.
So: inmates are “forced” doing work in the context I described: not slaves. Poor exploited locals building soccer stadiums in Dubai: slaves.
Appreciate you clarifying. I have a better understanding of your views than I did before.
We seem to disagree on what the use of “force” constitutes exactly. In my opinion, having someone have to choose between what most would regard as basic amenities or working as cheap labor for some large conglomerate is considered force.
But, that’s my opinion. And you’re entitled to yours. I’m glad you could explain your position more clearly so that I could understand opposing viewpoints.
You should read literally anything about the US prison industry, mass incarceration, or war on drugs. The fact that America has the world’s largest prison population, that companies make money from this, and that the people who get imprisoned are largely non-white couldn’t possibly be related right?
Let me know if you change your position on that if you’re ever convicted and sentenced to prison for a crime you did not commit.
Maybe we should be treating people humanely regardless of their criminal record? They are in prison to become reformed citizens, not to be our slave laborers.
Teach you how forcing someone to do labor and be treated like a financial asset is slavery?
Well that’s easy. You open up your English textbook, you look up the word slavery, and you look at the definition.
Here, I’ll do the work for you:
“plural noun: slaves
1.
a person who is forced to work for and obey another and is considered to be their property; an enslaved person.”
Or do you mean, how is this situation slavery? It’s also pretty simple. The American prison system is for-profit. The government is incentivized to arrest more people because they have minimum quotas to meet when putting people in prison. Otherwise they pay extra on the contracts. The prison employees are considered assets in this situation. And those prison employees are put to work with no or little pay.
But I do understand. English is a very complicated language and the intricacies of the US prison system are not well known in other countries, I imagine. Thank you for asking for help.
…what other slavery currently exists (legally) that this would have addressed? This isn’t combining two things. Barring slavery in any form includes punitive servitude. Calling them separate issues is like calling “we should fix this leak” a separate concern from “this pipe should not have any leaks”.
People likely voted for not repealing the provision allowing involuntary servitude as a punishment for crime and not for keeping slavery.
Whoever thought combining those two things in one vote was a good idea is an idiot
Its a form of slavery…
No, it’s a form of punishment. It can be avoided by not committing crimes.
You must be either young and ignorant or don’t know how crime is set up here in America.
Like the crime of not being paid enough to afford housing?
In what 3rd world country you have to commit crimes to afford housing?
In the several states where it is a crime to be homeless. Such as the 24 states with laws restricting “loitering” in public spaces. Or the 16 states that do the same, but in all spaces. Or the 15 states where pitching a tent in public locations is illegal. Or the 4 states that do that, but in all spaces. Or the 6 states where sleeping or lying down in public is illegal. Or the 4 states where it is illegal to sleep in a vehicle.
Because no innocent person is ever wrongly locked up, right?
So release everyone from prison, because a minority of inmates are wrongly locked up.
You said slavery could be avoided by not committing crimes. I showed that is not true.
Nah, slavery is still slavery. Tons of US businesses are currently propped up by prisoner workers who they don’t have to pay practically anything, and who can’t walk off the job, and who can’t really complain too much, AND, conveniently, aren’t employed by that company so they can bypass labor laws like break times, safety regulations, and working hours.
It’s slavery as punishment. Which is still slavery.
In a justice system functioning perfectly? Sure! In the US one, on the other hand…
You’re making the following statements, lmk if this is inaccurate:
-Involuntary servitude is not considered slavery, but rather a punishment.
-Involuntary servitude is OK as long as it’s used on prisoners (those who have been convicted of crimes).
Inference made: Constitutional protections and rights do NOT apply to those going against the rule of law.
Questions for you:
-If involuntary servitude isn’t considered slavery, then what would you consider slavery to be?
-Is this a form of punishment that helps to reform and correct those deemed currently unsuitable for society (without going into the meaninglessness of Orwellian naming conventions, they are called the “Department of Corrections”, aren’t they?)
-Do you think the rule of law always corresponds with ethical standards?
-I always like to ask myself the following: Who stands to benefit from allowing slaver- I mean, “involuntary servitude” to continue to be allowed? Who stands to benefit from all this cheap labor?
I’m curious as to your answers here.
The thing is: it is not black-or-white but always and heavily depends on context. But let me try to clarify my point of view.
If someone commits a crime and is sentenced to do community service for example, then it is a punishment, yes. In a modern society they are not forced (i.e. with actual psychologic/financial/physical force) but rather given the option to either do community service (or whatever they were sentenced to by the judge, like for example an arsonist has to help rebuilding what they burned down) or chose not to do it. It this case they either have to pay a certain amount of money or they’re going to jail instead.
Yes, in two ways. First, it is part of their correction process by giving them a structured day, a responsibility, something to be proud of (like getting a qualification or being able to have some form of apprenticeship helping them to gain a foothold in society, etc., etc.). And second as part of their imprisionment. Also mainly to have a structured day and having them away from their cell so the prison staff can search it for contraband, the cleaning staff to do their work, etc. The prisoners will also get some money from it for being able to buy “luxury goods” in the prison kiosk (i.e. goods that are not provided by the prison, like chocolate, good/better coffee, etc.).
They’re also not “forced” to do this. If they decide not to, then they usually get more strict rules, like less “free” time in the courtyard, not allowed to have regular visitors, no day parole, earlier cell confinement and less time to see other inmates, etc.
Forcing someone to do work for you, using physical (threatening with, or using violence), psychological (talk them into doing it, yelling at them, bully them, etc.), or financial (exploiting their poverty) force and/or ignoring safety risks and/or ignoring health issues and risks.
So: inmates are “forced” doing work in the context I described: not slaves. Poor exploited locals building soccer stadiums in Dubai: slaves.
Appreciate you clarifying. I have a better understanding of your views than I did before.
We seem to disagree on what the use of “force” constitutes exactly. In my opinion, having someone have to choose between what most would regard as basic amenities or working as cheap labor for some large conglomerate is considered force.
But, that’s my opinion. And you’re entitled to yours. I’m glad you could explain your position more clearly so that I could understand opposing viewpoints.
^ Clown shit ^
You should read literally anything about the US prison industry, mass incarceration, or war on drugs. The fact that America has the world’s largest prison population, that companies make money from this, and that the people who get imprisoned are largely non-white couldn’t possibly be related right?
It is literally slavery.
Let me know if you change your position on that if you’re ever convicted and sentenced to prison for a crime you did not commit.
Maybe we should be treating people humanely regardless of their criminal record? They are in prison to become reformed citizens, not to be our slave laborers.
Look at this guy over here who thinks there aren’t any innocent people in prison.
Now is when you can realize you’re wrong, learn, and edit your comment.
Teach me, oh glory American. I am just a stupid German.
Teach you how forcing someone to do labor and be treated like a financial asset is slavery?
Well that’s easy. You open up your English textbook, you look up the word slavery, and you look at the definition.
Here, I’ll do the work for you:
“plural noun: slaves 1. a person who is forced to work for and obey another and is considered to be their property; an enslaved person.”
Or do you mean, how is this situation slavery? It’s also pretty simple. The American prison system is for-profit. The government is incentivized to arrest more people because they have minimum quotas to meet when putting people in prison. Otherwise they pay extra on the contracts. The prison employees are considered assets in this situation. And those prison employees are put to work with no or little pay.
But I do understand. English is a very complicated language and the intricacies of the US prison system are not well known in other countries, I imagine. Thank you for asking for help.
Oh sweet summer child.
You can be enslaved in the US for the crime of not having enough money to afford a place to live.
I always forget you Americans hate social welfare systems.
Maybe it’d be a good idea to familiarize yourself with the problems in the US before making sweeping statements about them, in that case.
Yeah unlike all those people I see living in the streets in Germany, who do that by choice
…what other slavery currently exists (legally) that this would have addressed? This isn’t combining two things. Barring slavery in any form includes punitive servitude. Calling them separate issues is like calling “we should fix this leak” a separate concern from “this pipe should not have any leaks”.
Yes, those are two different things that should be addressed separately.
One is emergency plumbing, the other is maintenance.
Man dirk, I’m embarrassed for you and your family 🤦
I’m more embarrassed for the teachers who seem to have failed them.
$10 says the teachers tried. Getting blood out of a rock is hard, never mind getting imagination into one.
Fair point.