I get the concept of the Boogeyman opponent, but I’m this case nothing is myth, or fearmongering. We can see what the Biden admin is doing, and assume Harris won’t be very far from it. It’s not desirable but holy shit is there room for more chaos and death.

There really isn’t in Palestine, in terms of the US. The US is competently organizing and supporting this genocide precisely because very competent Zionists are in charge, namely Biden, the team he has curated over decades, and Harris. They are actually pushing hard beyond what the Pentagon et al recommend, strategically, due to ideological commitment to the project. Harris is, of course, an empty suit, but one that is fully in line with this set of policies, and has taken on a major role in terms of selling the fake, appropriating “ceasefire” narrative and in running the DNC and its overall messaging, which has been brazenly pro-Israel during a genocide, committing to guaranteeing unconditional material supporting, and not even doing any form of pandering or aesthetic appeasement. Everyone knows that they could have brought on some wishy-washy Palestinian to do some both-sides pro-peace message at the DNC or later, but they are unwilling to do even that. That is how little they will give in on this issue. Those are the monsters created by this political self-disempowerment.

We have seen how trump handles the middle east, and color that with his modern statements. It’s evident trump’s path will be materially worse for Palestinians.

It is not evident. Trump is not as competent as Biden and his admin. He will have the same imperialist state that will of course back Israel, but he will also screw things up in various ways. I do not think Trump would have executed European subservience nearly as effectively as Biden-Harris. That is the primary outcome of their approach to Ukraine: to scuttle an independent Europe. They are now fully dollar-dependent and dependent on the US for energy while slowly deinstrializing themselves. Of course they will now fall in line more strongly on the US-backed genocide of Palestine. Trump actually pushed Europe in the opposite direction. This is not because he is smart and good, but he is inadvertently disruptive to carefully-laid plans, even while adhering to them 95% of the time.

Though to be clear, I do not subscribe to lesser-evilism logic. This is a self-defeating logic that is very shortsighted.

Given that trump or Harris will be the next president, the best choice for everyone is Harris.

The best choice is to not normalize genocide. I will accept a compromise: if you don’t tell anyone to vote for Harris, nor defend such people, I don’t mind if you cast your vote for her. Deal?

As a bonus, the opportunity to “refuse to normalize” will be in jeopardy with trump, as evidenced by his language to go after dissidents, his treatment of protesters, and the leveraging of stochastic terrorism to motivate his base towards race/ethnicity based attacks, the Muslim ban, the kashoggi murder, the soleimani assassination, his conservative judicial appointments, his under the table relationship with Saudi Arabia via kushner, and his on the record praise of strongmen like netanyahu.

The Biden-Harris administration is heavily pro-cop, and of course Harris called herself California’s top cop. She was known for being particularly cruel as AG. Oppression against dissidents primarily happens via local police and sometimes state police and the military. This faction of the Dems fully coopted and then worked directly against the George Floyd protests to massively fund cops and it is local Democrats that facilitate and run the police departments engaging in naked and disproportionate violence. In addition, it is the Biden admin that just signed an EO to authorize the use of “lethal force” by the US military on US soil, something backed up by a subsequent Pentagon memo. It is important to understand that these are not really oppositional forces, they are co-amplifiers of one another, and the Democratic political class openly enable the slide into oppression and then pretend to be against it when it has a bad look. They are slick, but not reducing harm.

I could go on more about the examples you listed if you would like me to, I just don’t want to take up too much space away from centering Palestine, particularly if it is not something you would want to discuss at length. Let me know if you would like to or if there is one particularly salient point that is most relevant. I could also continue that discussion in another thread or via DMs.

If you think it’s hard to denormalize what’s happening re Israel now, strap in for the trump ride.

Under Trump, the people here normalizing genocide would be anti-genocide to the hilt, or at least in how they internalize this red line to themselves. They could be mobilized to protest, they could learn the core lessons at hand, they could demand that Dems et al work against this, and they could get involved with direct actions. When they are normalizing genocide, they tend to work in the opposite direction, and things will get far worse.

Edit by abstaining on principle “you” may bring about the single worst person for progressive ideals, middle east stability, and Muslim security in the US with consequences lasting for decades.

I do quite a bit of work against the genocide on Palestine and political work. I am not simply “abstaining” from politics. But I do suggest that those who think of politics as electoralism consider what they are doing when they announce that it’s okay to voter for genociders. What that really means and who you think you are vs. who you actually behave as, and what you will not just tolerate, but openly justify.

I’m aware of literally everything you are talking about but I have historical context that you apparently lack. Look up what happened to socialists in nazi germany.

I don’t need to look it up, of course. Who knows where you got this ides that I don’t know history. Maybe you should just ask instead of presuming? They were killed and oppressed and organized resistance as partisans.

We need to stop the fascists before they take power or everything gets worse. Things can fucking get worse.

Stop the fascists by doing what?

Remember what the various left factions did in the 192ps and 1930s? How did Hitler become chancellor?

I do need to say that the US is not like Germany leading up to the Nazis, though. If it has similarities to Germany it is Germany from the late 1800s, before they lost status in WWI. But even that doesn’t make sense because the Germany of the late 1800s had a much larger left than the US. The important factor here is that the US is not an embarrassed former imperialiat nation in decline, it is the dominant global superpower overseeing and causing most of the war and intentional death on the planet. Why are you worried about Hitler when you are voting for Himmler while he does a genocide? That is not fighting fascists!

My inclination is damage limitation not some bullshit ideal.

Being against genocide is a bullshit ideal? Tell me more.

There are two options on the table, and I voted for Harris because I love my trans brothers and sisters, my many migrant friends, my wife who is a disabled immigrant.

There are, of course, more options on the table. Third party candidates and leaving it blank. You did not have to vote for someone that is committing a genocide, let alone rationalize it as just a decision to help marginalized people. You almost seem proud of it.

I hate Harris and Biden for what they are doing to migrants and Palestinians.

Not enough to not give them exactly what they want and tell others to do the same.

Trump would make literally everyone worse off. So

I don’t think Trump would have had your consent to genocide the Palestinian people. I think you would have had this “bullshit ideal” and there is a decent chance I could have gotten you to mobilize at least once and foment a crisis re: unilateral executive arms donations (which Biden is doing BTW). I don’t think Trump would have been as competent at coordinating European complicity, likely would have thrown a wrench in the works.

I think you are overlooking material impacts and are focused on the reactionary aesthetics.

PS Dems are promoting at least one transphobic D politician now. They will shift right in this just like they now embrace the border wall, introduced and fought for a harsh right wing immigration bill, and are tiptoeing around mass deportation discourse.

One if the reasons they can do all of this is that they don’t need to earn your vote. Ever. You will even vote for them when they commit genocide. Unmoored by any attempt to organize demands they will do whatever they think is best for their donors and can’t be managed by PR goons. And you are helping, not just with your own vote, but in justifying it to others and by being shitty to those who oppose genocide with a coherent, principled stance.

So I will take my meager power at the ballot box to oppose fascism. Outside of the ballot box I will oppose the democrats for the genocidaires they are.

You are contradicting yourself because you are telling everyone here that what you did was good and right and aligned with opposing fascism. If you want to vote for a genocider and never tell anyone to do the same I would accept that compromise.