I’m fine with ‘they’, but I think you’re misrepresenting the very real problem that is inserting a 3rd-person pronoun as a personal pronoun due to the existing patterns ingrained and interpreted through speech.
It doesn’t hurt me to try and make the conscious change, I do actively try for the people in my life, but it DOES flow weird in my brain and takes more mental effort to keep straight. At least, it still does, it might get easier with more time, I don’t know.
They has always been a 3rd person personal pronoun just like he/she/it have as far as I know. The thing that people find upsetting is that people want to go back to using it as a singular after some grammarians decided everyone should use he or her for a while.
We’ve been doing it for hundreds of years. If you really want to fix something then come up with a plural for “you”; that would be far more helpful.
You may not notice those times you say “they” like in the examples I already gave, but you do say it, and the only thing tripping you up is that you’re thinking about it. It’s like breathing, it’s weird when you’re paying attention but it’s not wrong and you’ve always done it.
I thought you was the more respectful form of thou in singular, and “ye” was the plural form of that. In Ireland you still hear ye used for plural you sometimes.
By more respectful i mean similar to usted in Spanish or vous in French
Ok, then demand we bring “thou” back with the same fervor. Maybe I’m missing that crusade in your life but if you’re gunna go around acting like “they” is difficult I would expect equal frustration with “you”, no?
People really don’t want to treat trans people properly and they’ll even pretend shit they already do easily is somehow weird and too difficult. I’m just a cis dude over her, with a host of non-binary friends, and for the most part I just say “they” and haven’t died yet. And I fuck it up sometimes and don’t get hung from the rafters like these goons think will happen, probably because the only scenario they know is when they get it wrong on purpose or are otherwise agitating someone.
Your anger is on a completely irrational level. I don’t understand trans mentality, because I don’t feel like a man or woman — I just feel like me — though I want what’s best for them (the same as anyone) but referring to someone in the 3rd person makes me feel like I’m referring to someone with schizophrenia or multiple personality disorder. There’s even an old Seinfeld episode about a guy that refers to himself in the 3rd person and comedy ensues, because nobody does that.
Just because culture and language doesn’t fulfill your requirements or align with your expectations, doesn’t mean that the people of that culture or language are malicious and hateful towards you. The world is not required to bend to your feefees. Hell, the only reason I don’t care about pronouns is because I struggle to remember names… People tend to get offended when you forget their names as it is, now I have to add another dimension I’ll undoubtably fuck up… I can accept trans people being the way they are without giving a fuck, but apparently I can’t expect the same acceptance for my brain being the way it is, and if I don’t dot my I’s and cross my T’s as you see fit I risk being called a bigot, so fuck me I guess…
Buddy that’s a whole lot of words to say you’re fucking tool. I’m not even trans, just a cis dude with non-binary friends and a basic understanding of how the English language has functioned for hundreds of years. If your brain cannot handle saying “they” then said brain is fucking pathetic. Figure it out, and if you really can’t at least don’t go trying to make it everyone else’s problem you absolute twat.
Like, it’s not even that you’re having a hard time with a very easy concept, no one is perfect and the added stress of getting it right will occasionally lead to mistakes. My friends don’t hate me when I mess up because they know I’m trying, and people hate you because you’re putting more energy into saying you won’t even try, and calling them schizophrenic for some reason, than just putting in the bare minimum effort.
It’s like you didn’t read their comment at all before replying. Singular they feels natural as a 3rd person pronoun for a party whose gender is unknown. When using it to describe a known person, it feels like you’re talking about an unknown person even though you do know them. It does feel weird to say and makes me pause any time I have to say it
Literally you already do it without a problem. You have, and I would bet large sums of money on it, said in regards to someone well know to you “they forgot it at home” or something to that effect. You already do this without thinking, the only extra layer is that you’re trying not to get it wrong, not that it’s difficult to get it right.
Just practice some more. You still won’t be perfect but these people literally do not care at all so long as you’re trying and aren’t attempting to take their rights away. They have bigger fish to fry.
I feel like you’re obtusely ignoring the difference in context between how the non-binary “they” is used (which is a new phenomenon) and how the 3rd person of indefinite gender “they” is used
Oh, go on then, explain it. I’d love to hear the nuanced differences between these two uses of 3rd person singular “they” for when he or she are not possible to use.
I’m fine with ‘they’, but I think you’re misrepresenting the very real problem that is inserting a 3rd-person pronoun as a personal pronoun due to the existing patterns ingrained and interpreted through speech.
It doesn’t hurt me to try and make the conscious change, I do actively try for the people in my life, but it DOES flow weird in my brain and takes more mental effort to keep straight. At least, it still does, it might get easier with more time, I don’t know.
They has always been a 3rd person personal pronoun just like he/she/it have as far as I know. The thing that people find upsetting is that people want to go back to using it as a singular after some grammarians decided everyone should use he or her for a while.
We’ve been doing it for hundreds of years. If you really want to fix something then come up with a plural for “you”; that would be far more helpful.
You may not notice those times you say “they” like in the examples I already gave, but you do say it, and the only thing tripping you up is that you’re thinking about it. It’s like breathing, it’s weird when you’re paying attention but it’s not wrong and you’ve always done it.
“You” is the plural of “thou”. It even has plural grammar (“you are”, not “you is”)
I thought you was the more respectful form of thou in singular, and “ye” was the plural form of that. In Ireland you still hear ye used for plural you sometimes.
By more respectful i mean similar to usted in Spanish or vous in French
You’re saying that as if you speak to an individual and say “you is”. Do you do that?
That’s almost the opposite of what I said.
So, singular “you” also has this “plural grammar” you mention and we don’t say “thou” anymore. So what’s your point, then?
That was my point.
You said find a plural for “you”.
I said that “you” is already a plural.
That’s it, there’s nothing deeper.
Ok, then demand we bring “thou” back with the same fervor. Maybe I’m missing that crusade in your life but if you’re gunna go around acting like “they” is difficult I would expect equal frustration with “you”, no?
I don’t recall ever suggesting that “they” is difficult. I have in the past used analogy to “you” to help people get comfortable using “they”.
I don’t know why you’re being downvoted. You’re correct. Plural they is at least as old as Shakespeare. The notion that it’s only singular is modern.
No one is saying to use it only as a singular, and the singular form of they has written record predating Shakespeare
People really don’t want to treat trans people properly and they’ll even pretend shit they already do easily is somehow weird and too difficult. I’m just a cis dude over her, with a host of non-binary friends, and for the most part I just say “they” and haven’t died yet. And I fuck it up sometimes and don’t get hung from the rafters like these goons think will happen, probably because the only scenario they know is when they get it wrong on purpose or are otherwise agitating someone.
Your anger is on a completely irrational level. I don’t understand trans mentality, because I don’t feel like a man or woman — I just feel like me — though I want what’s best for them (the same as anyone) but referring to someone in the 3rd person makes me feel like I’m referring to someone with schizophrenia or multiple personality disorder. There’s even an old Seinfeld episode about a guy that refers to himself in the 3rd person and comedy ensues, because nobody does that.
Just because culture and language doesn’t fulfill your requirements or align with your expectations, doesn’t mean that the people of that culture or language are malicious and hateful towards you. The world is not required to bend to your feefees. Hell, the only reason I don’t care about pronouns is because I struggle to remember names… People tend to get offended when you forget their names as it is, now I have to add another dimension I’ll undoubtably fuck up… I can accept trans people being the way they are without giving a fuck, but apparently I can’t expect the same acceptance for my brain being the way it is, and if I don’t dot my I’s and cross my T’s as you see fit I risk being called a bigot, so fuck me I guess…
Buddy that’s a whole lot of words to say you’re fucking tool. I’m not even trans, just a cis dude with non-binary friends and a basic understanding of how the English language has functioned for hundreds of years. If your brain cannot handle saying “they” then said brain is fucking pathetic. Figure it out, and if you really can’t at least don’t go trying to make it everyone else’s problem you absolute twat.
Like, it’s not even that you’re having a hard time with a very easy concept, no one is perfect and the added stress of getting it right will occasionally lead to mistakes. My friends don’t hate me when I mess up because they know I’m trying, and people hate you because you’re putting more energy into saying you won’t even try, and calling them schizophrenic for some reason, than just putting in the bare minimum effort.
It’s like you didn’t read their comment at all before replying. Singular they feels natural as a 3rd person pronoun for a party whose gender is unknown. When using it to describe a known person, it feels like you’re talking about an unknown person even though you do know them. It does feel weird to say and makes me pause any time I have to say it
Literally you already do it without a problem. You have, and I would bet large sums of money on it, said in regards to someone well know to you “they forgot it at home” or something to that effect. You already do this without thinking, the only extra layer is that you’re trying not to get it wrong, not that it’s difficult to get it right.
Just practice some more. You still won’t be perfect but these people literally do not care at all so long as you’re trying and aren’t attempting to take their rights away. They have bigger fish to fry.
If the person is well known to me, I would say he/she (if that’s their pronouns), not the 3rd person “they”
Oh, to be there when you say “they” haha
Or to watch you struggle to force yourself to say he/she so I “lose”.
It’s ok, we’ve only been doing it for hundreds of years; it’s just a passing fad, right?
I feel like you’re obtusely ignoring the difference in context between how the non-binary “they” is used (which is a new phenomenon) and how the 3rd person of indefinite gender “they” is used
Oh, go on then, explain it. I’d love to hear the nuanced differences between these two uses of 3rd person singular “they” for when he or she are not possible to use.
I feel like you haven’t read anybody else’s comments other your own, because I and others have already explained it