And if something did maybe happen, it’s the CIA’s fault
“you dont understand! nothing happened INSIDE the square! (ignore that masses were killed beside the square)”
Well, to be perfectly clear, here in Mexico happened a students massacre in the Three Cultures square in 1968. The CIA was involved.
24 downvotes telling me actually this never happened.
Also, nobody talk about Grenada in 1983. Or Iran Air Flight 655. Or the MOVE bombing in 1985. Or the police response to the LA Riots. Or the police response to the Iraq War protests. Or the police response to OWS protests. Or the police response to BLM protests. Or the police response to the campus protests in defense of Palestine.
That’s Whataboutism.
You can’t just talk about ACAB or discuss the broad problems of a heavily armed carceral state looking for heads to crack. Only Foreign Countries are Bad.
maybe you should post it as a separate meme since people are crying about whataboutism. I hadn’t heard of this one actually.
I don’t think I can do memes of crimes against humanity, but thank you for the suggestion. Getting people to know, or be more aware, about the hideous activities of entities like the CIA is enough for me.
fair
Nice whataboutism. How hard can it be to understand that China having a shitty government does not mean that the US is perfect?
Whatabwhat? Do you think that’s what I don’t understand? No, I get it. It’s just that, if you are an US American defending your government, I couldn’t care less about your opinion on matters of other nations.
I am not a Yank, and I sure as hell aren’t defending them.
You sure react in favor of the USA government. I mentioned a case of a massacre of hundreds of students in a public square in a completely different country because it is related to the OP. The treatment of this case was the same: “nothing happened here, nothing to see”. The USA, through the CIA, got involved in the whole thing. Your reaction? You accuse me of “whataboutism”, overlooking the fact of the massacre. You do not even mention anything about it with your “nice whataboutism”. Well, it was not nice at all, but it happened. My intention was to show another horrible and similar case of deadly authoritarianism against students. I’m expecting people can hold two or more similar crimes against humanity in their brains for a while.
Americans will post a meme about Tianimen Square while eating a Chiquita banana.
Americans can, and will, openly discuss this stuff, and think badly of their government for it, and won’t get in trouble with the government for doing so publicly.
Unless they are whistle blowing something important
That is not the same as as the subject at hand, I have already addressed this, multiple times, down further. A more apt comparison would have been Kent State. Which was something that was immediately put on the news.
Tell that to the college anti-war protestors getting beat by police for literally using their first amendment right to protest and speak, and NOT blocking movement to classes at all.
Yes, I was going to say that Kent state would be a more apt comparison. But this isn’t the issue at hand. If I go into a thread discussing Kent, the US over throw of Guatemala, etc. I am just saying I choose the evils of the US, and am here to whatabout China as a deflection. You can tell me all this stuff, that I am already keenly aware of, and it still does nothing, but miss the point.
This is an english meme about the one event in Chinese history that gets repeated in english-speaking spaces over and over and over again. This isn’t attempting to make an argument to a Chinese audience. Why shouldn’t we draw comparisons to similar things in the US? What else would we talk about? Just a whole thread of “yeah, that’s bad” again and again? For every time this gets trotted out?
They felt the same way the Kent State Students felt before the attack.
That tens of millions of people across the nation were about to be slaughtered, broadcast on tv around the world?
Why are people so laser-focused on this one event that happened over three decades ago?
Because there is a real effort by a government to prevent people millions of people from remembering.
Are people in China or on Chinese social media allowed to talk about it today?
Being able to talk about the genocide of the Palestinian people doesn’t seem to change anything. Turns out freedom of speech is happily granted when your speech is powerless.
You asked why people care about it so much, and I’m pretty confident the reason is because we’re allowed to talk about it here. If we don’t, someone will forget about it. Those who don’t know history are doomed to repeat it.
Furthermore, what we’re remembering is a moment when people who were trying to make their voices heard were silenced. By making our voices heard and remembering that they lost their lives in the name of their voices is in itself an act of remembrance that honors their memories.
Lastly, for the low hanging fruit, asking why people are “laser-focused” on an event from a long time ago is a stupid fucking question when today there are nazis and fascists on the fucking ballot. That’s why we remember the past.
And yes, to your point, those do who know history are doomed to watch others repeat it but remembering it is nonetheless valuable, and honoring people who died for something noble is also valuable.
You speak of nobility and remembering the past but I’ve only seen this used as a cheap way to score political points on lemmy.world (and upvotes) for what that matters.
Someone casually browsing who doesn’t know the event would only glean that the CCP is bad, but they would have no idea what the students were even protesting about. So much for remembering the past.
As for nazis on the ballot, we have two presidential candidates and both fully support israel’s campaign of genocide and lebensraum.
Well you didn’t ask why the OP was laser focused on this event, you asked why “people” are and I gave my best guess as to why it keeps coming up. It also could be that people just like to do things they’re told not to do
Yeah, that’s fair.
try posting it on grad, they’ll love it
Or ml. Or Hexbear.
Why can’t we have a leftist instance that doesn’t suck CCP dick?
https://queer-bolshevik.medium.com/the-aes-doctrine-wrong-then-wrong-now-a8666de371da
This is a good read. There is a pretty large socialist movement that seems to have the idea that to reach global socialism we need to defend every self proclaimed socialist state without asking any questions at all and hope they’ll get better over time.
I love this article while also finding it frustrating. The author seems to be a Marxist-Leninist-Maoist, but also goes into detail about how all the ML states have devolved into capitalism. Maybe that should be taken as evidence that ML’s vanguard party is a fatally flawed concept?
Maoists are ultraleftists, they generally deviate from Marxism to an idealist, rather than a materialist degree. I recommend checking out my comment responding to them.
The Vanguard concept isn’t flawed, it has real basis in materialist understanding. The idea that AES states have “devolved into Capitalism” is wrong as well (except the USSR into the various post-Socialist states). I recommend reading both Why do Marxists Fail to Bring the “Worker’s Paradise?” as well as Socialism Developed China, Not Capitalism. The Dengist reforms were a reversion back towards Marxism, Mao had tried to achieve Communism through fiat without enough development of the productive forces and as such there were struggles and recessions.
Public Ownership and Central Planning works best on monopolist syndicates aquired by the State, that’s the entire reason why Marxists say Capitalism creates Socialism and that the bourgeoisie produces its own gravediggers first and foremost, this monopolization into internally planned syndicates makes Socialism a natural evolution on Capitalism, not a “better society” to force into existence.
The idea that AES states have “devolved into Capitalism” is wrong as well (except the USSR into the various post-Socialist states).
TIL a country with 814 billionaires isn’t capitalist.
Bruh, it’s a losing battle in here. I got downvoted to hell for saying the same thing.
Ultraleftism, found in the author’s Maoist leanings, is also dogmatic. I really like the articles Socalism Developed China, Not Capitalism as well as Why do Marxists Fail to Bring the “Worker’s Paradise?” as both help recontextualize AES from a materialist lens, specifically from the frame of Historical Materialism.
Blackshirts and Reds is a fantastic book, but the other 2 articles are 20 minutes each and Blackshirts and Reds is a full book.
Also, for what it’s worth, you have defended Zionism and believe Israel as a Settler-Colonial project should remain. Not exactly Marxist analysis, is this? Marxists hold firm that Israel cannot exist without its settler-colonialism, and isn’t a “nation,” hence the unwavering support for Palestinian National Liberation (especially the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine).
Doesn’t China advocate for a two state solution too? Even they aren’t arguing for Israel to not exist.
Sort of. The PRC constantly takes the least confrontational stance possible. The correct Marxist take is the One State Solution, but the PRC will always take diplomacy over conflict.
Gotcha, so advocating for the same solution as AES countries do is bad, good to know.
Marxists generally support AES, so instances that are pro-Marxism tend to be supportive of the CPC. I don’t think there are any Syndicalist instances or anything, so you’d have to go to an Anarchist server like dbzer0 or something. Lemmy.world tends to be right-wing, especially because it’s defederated from Marxist instances and some of the mods have ridiculed Marxism in general.
AES?
Edit: Found it, “Actually existing socialism”
db0 is pretty neutral while being intentionally left.
I have this LINK to the Lefty Memes moderator on db0 advocating against Democracy, is an advocate for the CCP and for people in the USA to tear down the system and abandon NATO.
I wouldn’t describe it as “neutral,” it’s definitely Anarchist dominant and the admins and users tend to be anti-Marxist. That’s fine for its audience, but if someone wants a Marxist instance dbzer0 isn’t really it.
lemmy.world is basically that. You’ll get the most concentrated socdem/socialist engagements without traipsing into hunny-cum-shot territory.
Lemmy.world absolutely isn’t Leftist, it’s overwhelmingly liberal and the mods are anti-Marxist, even defederating from Marxist instances. Lemmy.world is allowed to be a liberal instance, but pretending it’s socialist is silly.
I mean, depends on the day. I see tons of very socialist/leftist memes and content posted to world. That being said, how many times do you need to circle jerk about socialism in the comments section on Lemmy? It’s not like anyone is actually going to do a proletariat revolution. At this point, it would just be Marxists “ackshually”-ing each other. I’m super bored of the lack of progress made in the discussions.
I mean, depends on the day. I see tons of very socialist/leftist memes and content posted to world.
Leftist messaging is increasingly popular as Capitalism decays, but that doesn’t mean everyone has read theory. Lemmy.world is largely populated by liberals sympathetic to an idealistic form of Socialism that is pure fantasy, and denounce AES as a betratal of Socialism. Blackshirts and Reds has an entire chapter dedicated to western “left” anticommunism.
That being said, how many times do you need to circle jerk about socialism in the comments section on Lemmy?
I’m a Marxist-Leninist, I believe Marxism to be correct and try to get others to read theory. I get deep satisfaction whenever someone changes their mind or reads theory because of what I comment and post.
It’s not like anyone is actually going to do a proletariat revolution
On what grounds do you say this? Revolution is happening all around the world every few years in different states, as Capitalism decays more people become sympathetic to leftism. It will likely happen latest in Imperialist countries like the US, where living standards are inflated by hyper-exploitation of the Global South, and happens all the time in the Global South. Trends exist, systems aren’t static, Capitalism cannot last forever. That would be like believing water could be continuously heated and never boil.
At this point, it would just be Marxists “ackshually”-ing each other. I’m super bored of the lack of progress made in the discussions.
To be clear, most Marxists don’t need to “ackshually” each other, just towards liberals. Liberals often have the same misconceptions, that doesn’t mean they aren’t changing their minds individually.
So those people calling it neoliberal are fucking liars
Yeah, basically. ‘Neoliberal’ and ‘lib’ are just snarl words many tankies use to mean “Anyone less fascist than Mao”.
In general, .world is much less radical than many places on Lemmy. But they’re far from neoliberals. The average poster is slightly left of a Berniecrat, probably; that is to say, either a very strong SocDem or a very weak DemSoc.
Thanks for calling tankies what they are: fascist.
Read Blackshirts and Reds, Socialism and Fascism are entirely incompatible and serve entirely different classes.
I’m theory, yes. In practice the idea of socialism has been hijacked and subverted by the same ruling class to serve their nefarious needs time and time again. Y’all should focus instead on how socialism is incompatible with authoritarianism. “Power to the people” my ass.
I wonder if there are comments here that I’ve blocked
Hexbear will flood this post if they find it
Hexbear
Post on .world
…
They have alts on lemmy.ml.
Then that would be .ml users. Semantics yes, but considering that .world never federated with Hexbear, I feel it relevant for accurately describing things.
hexbear.net is known for discussion of what goes on in the rest of the Fediverse (I went and found a recent example to show you: https://hexbear.net/post/3645205). Whereupin people with accounts that are able to often brigade places that if we take the narrowest view of who “hexbear” users are, they would not have access to. It just goes with the territory of (a) being passionate about a subject, along with (b) caring not in the slightest bit about the consent of the recipients.
I myself have multiple alts, and went to some trouble to ensure that it is barely recognizable which I am using (identical name and icon). I started on Kbin, and before it went defunct it got slower and slower so I switched to StarTrek, but it got slow for a bit too so now I made my final home on Discuss.Online. And when possible I will love to try out Sublinks, and probably I’ll try Piefed too then.
If someone switches from their hexbear.net account, where they heard about this post, to their Lemmy.ml one for the express purpose to downvoting and trolling this post with their “commentary”, I would call those hexbear users. If you read hexbear posts, it won’t be all that long before you find people not only admitting but being outright proud of doing precisely that. Here’s a very tame one to get you started: https://hexbear.net/post/272530, here’s another: https://hexbear.net/post/277508, and another: https://hexbear.net/post/280770, and there are links from there and available by searching.
They even explicitly stated in one of their old federation threads that their sole purpose in federating with other instances is to “dunk” on anyone they disagree with and send brigades. This has been a longstanding problem with them, nothing they do outside of their instance is in good faith.
Multiple of those links say that yeah. And the one where the admins took the vote, then ignored it and did the opposite of what the community asked. They are so toxic that they’ve even run off their own developers (I’m not sure if that really meant admin, but seeing as how iirc hexbear predates Lemmy it does make sense as actual developer too).
Some hexbears have left hexbear bc they were kicked out - too toxic for them even - but also some were not toxic enough, as in even they could no longer stand it there.
The only thing we absolutely must be intolerant of is intolerance.
