Microsoft has a Windows 11 problem. Staying on Windows 10 is a symptom.
They only care money. Not their users (expect buisness users who stuck M$'s walled garden and pour millions, if not billions to it).
7 to 10 all over again
I love how you’re totally ignoring 8 existed.
Skip every other version
I know it’s not a hardware compatibility problem. People just don’t want ads/tracking/AI bullshit, a removed control panel, settings that are hard to find/hidden, etc.
All intel processor 8th gen+ (and even some 7th gen IIRC) are win11 compatible, motherboard have TPM2 for years, even my intel 6th gen MB have TPM2.0.
Next year the intel 8th gen will have 8 years, people have PC/laptop more recent than that. Problem is that win10 will not get security updates and all.
I’m using MX Linux BTW.
It’s not a hardware compatibility problem for you or people who have reasonably new computers. However, for the last decade or so, computers have kind of stagnated and old computers are still very functional, something I couldn’t have said a decade or two ago.
I’m typing this on a ThinkPad x201 which was released in 2010. TBF, I’ve updated it as much as I can (8GB of RAM and an SSD), it’s running Linux Mint because Windows drags, and even then it’s getting tired.
My Spouse’s laptop is an Acer with a 5th gen i3. A couple years ago, she was complaining it was getting a bit slow, so I threw an SSD in it and now she’s happy with how it runs Windows 10, and I’m sure it would run Windows 11 fine if a TPM2.0 chip wasn’t required.
It’s forced obsolesces for a hardware requirement most home users are never going to use.
6th gen intel and 1st gen ryzen run perfectly fucking fine still.
My parents are using a 3rd gen i7 and it works fine. My brother has a few computers, one is a 2nd gen intel, but I think he put Linux on that one. My home server was running on my 4th gen i7 until I upgraded it to my second gen Ryzen earlier this year after I upgraded my gaming.
CPUs from around 2005 onward are all perfectly usable IMO for the purposes of x86 desktops. As long as it’s got x86_64, SSE4 and at least two available threads. I would even wager that Pentium 4 hyperthreaded models (Wolfdale?) are still acceptable if we’re really pushing it.
I’m currently using a trick on my Windows 11 work machine to get the old UI for file explorer by going through the control panel and going up a directory.
I’ll be so pissed the day they strip it out, because their new design language is ridiculously slow and terrible for the sake of “cleanliness.”
I still got a Ryzen 1600, that would be just fine for when my flatmate needs a PC for working remotely, but his company reqires Windows 11 :-(
I’m still gaming on my 1600X, although it is starting to show its age
Most people don’t care or even know that it is AI/ad-infested. I’ve seen people just fighting through pop-up on multiple websites they use. When ci fronted by me, they just said that they have “tunnel vision” and don’t care.
My 80+ year old parents don’t care about ads or AI. They just want a working PC, and W11 won’t install on the cheap machine they got a few years ago. They’re not going to buy a new one because this works perfectly fine.
And yes they tried Linux for several years, but went back to Windows because it was just too much hassle and not compatible with too many things.
It absolutely is a hardware problem.
I’m just waiting for the EOL of window 10 to see which of the following will happen:
- Many PCs will stop getting updates, people don’t care
- Many PCs will be replaced for windows 11
- Turns out people already have replaced their PCs due to other reasons
- Microsoft removes the hardware requirements
- People switch to another OS
- People just don’t buy a home PC anymore
- ???
- Profit???
240 millions PC will become e-waste if Win10 reaches EoL
EoL doesn’t mean it will stop completely; people will probably keep using it till they can’t anymore, like pc becoming too slow or their home banking site not working.
I’ve got an Asus eeePC running WinXP. It’s air-gapped and the wi-fi is disabled in BIOS. All it does is play music, connected to dumb speakers. I update the music periodically via USB. Remarkably reliable and long-lived hardware.
Realistically it will live for as long as Google Chrome still works and sites don’t start getting picky about TLS 1.3.
Sounds like homelabber paradise is headed for eBay
6 is becoming increasingly more common. Anecdotally, almost all of the gamers I know use consoles and have a phone for all of their “computer needs.” One of my friends probably wouldn’t even use his if it weren’t for VR Chat.
I’m a computer gamer but my kids like Xbox…they’re switching to Linux steam big picture mode.
My bet is that they are gonna surrender and will remove restriccions to W11. I doubt that a non-it person gonna install Linux, at least that, some companies decided to resell old~ computers with linux preinstalled that’s the only way
My money is on MS kicking the can down the road and adding another year or two to the support last minute, then not fixing any of the issues with 11.
The paid extended security update program is going to run until 2028, and Windows 10 IoT Enterprise 2021 LTSC is going to have extended support all the way until 2032.
They have stated that ESU is going to be available to consumers as well, though not for how much - but somewhere between the $61 of the commercial, and $1 (really) of the education license, with the price doubling every year.
1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128 Or won’t take long before it gets too expensive at that rate
1, 2, 4. Then it’s 2028 and ESU ends. No idea how the pricing for the IoT long term support thing is done though.
- ✅
Or Win10 IoT LTSC till 2032
I don’t see the os switch happening unless microsoft stops existing in its entirety.
Abandoning home PCs could be a thing I guess, but i feel like that would happen either way for these people
I doubt the os switch is happening too, some will probably switch but that will be a small amount, either they get Linux or afaik all other “popular” options require new hardware anyways (Macos)
I think many will just stay on windows 10 if their hardware doesn’t support 11 but ehh
Difficult to say, that’s why I’m waiting on the EOL for headlines like “millions of pcs vulnerable due to missing updates” or “maybe we were a little hard on crowdstrike”
Linux has been gaining market share, it’s at 4.5% or so, it’s not much but just until recently it never even hit 3%
Maybe Valve has something to do with it but who knows… I think we will see a bigger jump and it will start being as common as os x or something… I plan to switch and have been trying out different things
This is one of those things where home users just default to PC = Windows. But apps are all online now. Probably 99% of the time all people need is a browser. Yeah some people think they have to have MS Office or some other niche windows program, but I consider myself a power-user and the only apps I open on my PC are Games, Discord, IntelliJ, VSCode, and then maybe fool around with local AI stuff. Photos and stuff are usually on our phones, but they can also all be backed up to the cloud from a computer easily enough.
I’ve already switched over to Linux because all of that stuff already works. (Caveat: I also have a PS5 for most gaming).
Most people just need someone to install Linux Mint or whatever and they wouldn’t even notice the difference. The only thing really slowing Linux adoption is folks who don’t want to field support calls from their friends and family.
I’ll save you the wait. It’s 1 with quite a bit of 6.
Normal people just don’t need PCs that much any more. Nearly everything that people did on a PC you can do on a phone.
If you can’t do it on a phone, then it’s usually called work, and employers can replace things as needed. Although we’ve still got customers using variants of Windows XP, so don’t hold your breath. Some employers just aren’t beholden to higher ups that demand security audits.
All those numbers will happen at the same time, at different proportions.
Well fuck Win 11, its a fucking downgrade. At Win 10 EOL I’m going back to linux.
You and the rest of Lemmy.
There are dozens of us!
deleted by creator
It means I’m willing to put up with broken gpu drivers and wonky multidisplay setup rather than be on win11
Practically speaking, 10 vs 11 barely makes a difference.
The ads, AI garbage and spyware do though.
It’s funny, people said the exact same thing about Windows 10. It had ads and spyware. It also had Cortana, the AI garbage of its time. Consumers will never learn. Can’t wait for Windows 12 to also be seen as the one where Microsoft has ruined Windows for real this time.
Microsoft did ruin Windows with Windows 8, then they made it even worse with Windows 10 and now they’re making it even fucking worse with 11. Windows 7 was the golden age of Windows.
I hate 10. I’d rather have 7 again. It really sucks being forced to change OS when it’s a bad switch, sucks even worse when it’s because there’s no choice.
I remember the day I built my PC and realized the only Windows OS most new games would run on was 10. So much bloat and useless crap, so many intuitive features gone or moved to obtuse places.
Microsoft is really good at enshittifying things and has been for the last decade or so. If only it wasn’t about the money.
At the risk of being unpopular, I think a lot of what people perceive as unintuitive or worse in terms of settings and OS features is just change. I’m on Enterprise Windows 11 at work and I wouldn’t willingly go back to Windows 10.
I think because it’s Enterprise I’m dodging a lot of the worst of it - ads, telemetry, surprise updates, etc - but the unified settings are better once you learn them, tabbed File Explorer is better, dark mode switching is way better - there’s plenty to like.
I want to see the rise of the Linux desktop as much as anyone, but implying Windows 11 is all bad isn’t that fair an assessment.
Change is a big part of it certainly but the fact that Windows is coming dangerously close to only functioning online to serve you as many ads as possible and to extract more and more of your personal data to sell all the while owning a once not for profit AI company gives such megacorp vibes.
I’m really not going to be happy about being forced to switch because a high end pc built years ago is suddenly “outdated”.
By no means is it Ultra 4K HD compatible but it can still run anything AAA just fine. There’s no excuse for what Microsoft is doing in my eyes.
Agree with all of those points, I just don’t love the reductive notion that every change is a bad change and nothing’s been for the better. In several ways it’s a better OS - but as you say, they are also getting more contemptuous of the end user with things like privacy, anticompetitivity, and ads.
I take issue with the settings menu still relying on the old menus while having shuffled things around so I’m forced to look for settings. I don’t really bother with tabbed file explorer because it doesn’t bother saving my last open folders. I can’t speak to dark mode.
I can say that the start menu is horrendously slow, it can take up to 5 seconds for it to load. Sometimes keystrokes disappear in the start menu only to magically appear some time later. They made the right click menu worse and only changeable in regedit. They made RDP credentials only saveable using CMD. They removed vertical taskbars. There are a lot of issues in going to windows 11 for me.
I’m sure there are some improvements but at work we have a wiki page on how to unfuck up windows 11 so it works how you expect it to.
Good list! We differ on some of them…
I take issue with the settings menu still relying on the old menus while having shuffled things around so I’m forced to look for settings
This is still an issue, but I feel it’s diminishing as they (annoyingly slowly) do move all of the functionality to the new app. It was much worse in Windows 10, I think.
I can say that the start menu is horrendously slow, it can take up to 5 seconds for it to load.
“Works on my machine” is a profoundly unhelpful answer for me to give, but I’m fortunate enough not to have experienced this. If you’re looking for a workaround and don’t mind a further Microsoft app, the launcher in Powertoys is pretty solid.
Sometimes keystrokes disappear in the start menu only to magically appear some time later.
God, I hate the search from the start menu - but I would say that it’s been profoundly broken since Windows 8 and is marginally better in Windows 11.
They made the right click menu worse and only changeable in regedit.
100% agreed. I do think Windows 10 and earlier had a growing issue with the context menus getting unwieldy (Visual Studio is a great demo of how this can get really out of hand) but the solution Windows 11 have brought is annoying more than useful. I suspect at one point I made the registry change and forgot about it, because I’m back to a big Win10-style list.
They made RDP credentials only saveable using CMD.
Agreed again. That said, you’re a masochist if you’re not using an RDP manager like mRemoteNG! I wish Microsoft had a decent RDP app that wasn’t tied into Azure.
They removed vertical taskbars.
I found vertical taskbars incompatible with hotdesking on desks with different monitor configurations, but I do agree this one sucks.
how to unfuck up windows 11 so it works how you expect it to.
I think “how you expect it to” goes to the core of my point - needing to adapt to change isn’t inherently bad. But I’m not pretending Windows 11 is a wholesale improvement, and I do concede many of your arguments.
If there was ever a time for valve to push advertising out for the steam deck and steamOS it’s now. The final piece of the gaming puzzle is anticheat. If valve gets the proprietary anticheat makers on board then it’s all over. Every major hurdle would’ve been overcome, but games like valorant and call of duty still don’t work because of vanguard and ricochet.
With how terrible windows handhelds are, imagine how awesome it would be for those cod players to be able to play a round of warzone on the toilet? I joke, but seriously, that’s the demographic that needs to adopt a platform like the steam deck. That’s the barrier valve has to overcome, and I’m worried they just don’t care or something even more legally gray is happening, like Microsoft giving game devs incentive to use proprietary anticheat or to just not flip that EAC flag in their code.
Roblox still doesn’t have native support : /
Sober works well enough.
I answered someone here some months ago that they were testing out a native Linux client, don’t have the link right now but you should be able to find it.
And unless you’re 12, what are you doing?
Continue living in your bubble. Between it and Fortnite, you capture a sweeping plurality of all computer game players.
Many years ago, I attended a Windows XP launch event. The Microsoft presenter had the perfect line to describe how MS views this:
“Why should you upgrade to Windows XP? Because we’re going to stop supporting Windows 98!”This was said completely unironically and with the expectation that people would just do what MS wanted them to do. That attitude hasn’t changed in the years since. Win 10 is going to be left behind. You will either upgrade or be vulnerable. Also, MS doesn’t care about the home users, they care about the businesses and the money to be had. And businesses will upgrade. They will invariably wait to the last minute and then scramble to get it done. But, whether because they actually give a shit about security or they have to comply with security frameworks (SOX, HIPAA, etc.), they will upgrade. Sure, they will insist on GPOs to disable 90% of the Ads and tracking shit, but they will upgrade.
Because we’re going to stop supporting Windows 98!
At least there was a technical reason there, that Microsoft was merging the two separate codebases for consumer Windows and enterprise Windows, and building on the better NT codebase than the 95->98->ME codebase.
And XP was actually way better for the main thing that we were going to be using computers for going forward: networked with the actual internet.
Windows 11? Can’t see any paradigm shift in how the operating system itself is supposed to work, at least not on anything that actually makes a difference in a favorable way.
Ya, in fairness to MS, Windows XP was a good release (post SP1, like most “good” MS releases). But, the fact is that MS is going to push the latest version, regardless of how ready it is for use. MS was hot for folks to switch to Windows ME. And holy fuck was that a terrible OS. MS also did everything short of bribery to get folks to switch to Vista (anyone remember Windows Mojave?). The “upgrade, or else” mantra has always been their way. Not that I blame them too much, it does need to happen. It just sucks when the reason for the new OS is more intrusive ads and user tracking.
I think you’re wrong. Microsoft won’t end support on a system over or around half the world’s pc’s run on.
They’re just pulling a scare tactic right now. Before the security end date of win 10 is up, they’ll announce continued support for another 2 years. They’re just trying to push 11 and right now they’re bluffing.
Imagine a company with the power to break half the worlds computers with a business decision.
If it does actually happen next year, I look forward to the probably 10% gain or better to Linux. Mint will probably get the lions share.
Businesses (at least the larger ones) replace their hardware every few years anyway. They don’t care whether their new Optiplexes run Windows 10 or 11 and most hardware bought since 2022 probably has Windows 11 installed already, probably all since 2020 supports it. So there’s hardly a problem here. (Btw I’m taking the management view here, I know that it’s a pain to actually deploy, but that doesn’t matter to management).
Yes your right. Users only care if their software can run. Most could care less what OS is running under the hood.
Three years ago, I bought my wife a laptop with Windows 10 to replace her 10yo windows 7 machine.
It had hardware issues out of the box, and went in on two repairs. It works fine now, AFAIK.
But, she still doesn’t trust it, and she doesn’t think that she can move her Adobe CS6 license over to it…
I even bought her the affinity suite.
I’m starting to think she’ll never move on from Windows 7.
I think the major browsers stopped supporting it sometime during the last year, so my best hope is that some included certificates will eventually make her favourite websites stop working. That has to force her over to something more recent… right?
I use arch, btw.
up vote for arch.
I also use arch btw.
Me too
https://github.com/win32ss/supermium
Here is a relatively up to date Chromium fork that supports Windows XP and newer (I am not affiliated with the project btw)
I’ll keep that secret from her 😅
The author asks many questions, but never the most important one: “Why don’t people like Windows 11?”
Why would he? Anybody intersted already knows, rest doesn’t give a flying duck.
Yeah it’s convincing people that Windows 11 is actually good
If Linux didn’t exist, we would actually end up with a lot of e-waste, and I mean a fuck ton of it. And it’s all thanks to you, Microsoft.
Hell, Linux does exist, and people just don’t wanna use it because they’re so used to Windows that anything else is basically as steep of a learning curve as a literal cliff. And to those people I say: “just add some mint on it and life will be easy. Maybe even drizzle some cinnamon on it as well”
Linux is in a weird spot, there is a valley you must not be in with it.
If you are a non-technical person who needs only a browser and solitaire, it’s perfect.
If you are a highly technical person, it’s great.
If you’re just in between, you are fucked.
Trying to get games to run without being a Linux pro is much harder than I was led to believe. Some games just work out of the box, but a lot of them absolutely do NOT, even if protondb says they will.
The Steam Deck is trying to make Linux gaming more hassle-free, but it’s not like we’ve reached that stage yet. Still, we’re taking steps.
I have high hopes for the future. It’s just not quite there yet.
i do not agree with that sentiment. i’m an avid gamer, and in the last few weeks since switching to nobara i only found 1 obscure game that didn’t work, and 2 that needed an entry in the preferences of the game in steam. using heroic launcher for all amazon/epic/gog games and lutris for my piracy tryouts (would work in heroic too, but it’s cleaner that way)
but i must admit that the experience is smoother in windows; i miss my playnite launcher which integrated everything from steam to other stores, pirated games and all emulation needs.
I guess dual-booting is still a necessity for some of us, unless you have a single hard drive and your Windows installation decides to randomly break.
Maybe I’m just really unlucky when it comes to liking games that don’t work on Linux.
that might be. i am a pure single-player (with a bit of local coop mixed in) player, and i prefer roguelites, VNs with actual gaming elements and FPS / “Immersive Sim”-Style games, and currently the Vampire Survivor category with Yet another Zombie Survival and Halls of Torment. I try out a lot of games (If theres a Fitgirl or DODI release of it and even somewhere in my ballpark i’ll test it).
Most issues i have stem from modding games without Workshop support, using external Mod Managers like Vortex sucks on Linux.
I have also encountered games that needed tweaking (like changing settings in an .ini file that weren’t visible in the game’s menu) to run in an acceptable way on windows. Does this mean that Windows is ‘not quite there yet’, or is the game to blame?
Sure, but it’s not impossible to play any Blizzard games because the launcher login page is broken like it is on Linux. Blaming the game will only get you so far when so many games just don’t work and devs don’t care.
I’ve installed Linux mint cinnamon on some PCs for other people. It’s okay. I still run into errors and difficulties but for your average non techie person it might work if someone else gets them started.
That alone is a great introduction to Linux.
Started using linux mint 22 since 2 months great experience. Difficult with some software with wine winetricks and bottles and stuff. I’m not in any tech field. Learnt from YouTube. Still more to learn… But it’s fun to figuring things out and chatgpt
I’m a recent Mint user as well. The transition felt pretty seamless so far.
They should be required to release drivers such that massive e-waste wasn’t generated suddenly. I mean, why does the government allow a software company to own an monopolize the hardware? Hello Google! Good luck 🤞 with the monopoly assholes!
I think that any operating system that mostly runs 3rd party software should be legally required to open-source at least the components necessary to run said 3rd party software. Also, OSes should just straight up not be allowed to show ads, full-stop. Making people buy hardware and then bloating the OS with ads in updates is a bait and switch and if our government had any balls, would be illegal.
Not to mention that we pay for the bandwidth they use to show us ads. Like WTF! Since when did NBC as people to chip in for them to show us McDonald’s commercials?
Not just the bandwidth, but RAM usage, energy consumption, and cache storage space. Ads cost us money.
I hate Microsoft as much as the next guy, but which drivers do you have in mind? You can install Linux on almost any machine, and if there are driver issues the culprits are usually nvidia, realtek, etc. for which Microsoft is hardly responsible.
Oh my gosh 🤯 you are definitely not old enough. Microsoft has hardware by the balls because they own the eyeball markets at work. They can make a company that makes Ethernet cards for example change their API. It’s pretty simple to just end Linux by denying it hardware. So that’s why we must defend against that sort of monopoly which kept modems unobtainable to Linux for example. That was the great awakening, the modem wars.
obligatory 🐧 that must be in every thread
Another vote for Linux Mint. I finally switched from Windows 10 months ago and I love it.
I’m really enjoying the learning curve with Linux because I’m not always fighting the operating system. On the other hand, every time I’ve had to go “under the hood” with Windows (edit the Registry, change config files) it’s been to stop Microsoft from doing something sh*tty to me.
Rofl relatable. Me when i was trying to force uninstall edge or turn off windows activation logo
I’ve just installed it on my Dell Latitude E6330. It’s great, but am I the only one who gets his laptop restarted instead of powered off? It happened both on Mint and Zorin OS, never on Windows.
I tossed Mint on a VM briefly and really disliked it. Specifically finding the terminal was painful. Did they bury it pretty deep or did I just overlook it?
By default there is a shortcut to the terminal shortcut on task bar. From memory it is one of three default shortcuts. (File browser, Terminal, Firefox.) You can also find it by pressing the menu button (the ‘start menu’). From there the terminal has a prominent special position where it is always accessible. And if you don’t notice it there, you can always start typing to search for it - as with any other installed app. I find that if I type ‘t’, then “Terminal” is the top result; and obviously I can kept typing to eliminate the other results if I want.
So if your difficulty in finding the terminal is your main complaint about about Mint… I’m not sure what to tell you. Do you want it to auto-launch or something?
Ctrl + alt + t opens a terminal in most DE I’ve used as well
hahahahahah does anyone really think microsoft cares? their money is in business with all the big players already deploying 11 at least in modest amounts.
nothing stopped them when windows7 was still functional and they were pushing the tpm requirement, i dont see a difference here.
Their money is now in azure. Os and app suites are a declining business, but they help with azure lock in.
I stopped following 11 news after they cancelled the native android framework, only thing that got me excited since a BlueStacks installation gets huge extremely fast, I’m not going.
